The concluding part of the interview between Kouki Yoshimune, the author of “Muv-Luv,” Mafia Kajita, and BRZRK is finally here. In the second part, Kouki Yoshimune talked about the meticulous promotional strategy that was developed to bring “Muv-Luv” to the world, and the reasons why it took six years to complete the project. In this final part, we will get closer to the true nature of what lies behind the work “Muv-Luv”.
■”Muv-Luv” original author Kouki Yoshimune, Mafia Kajita, and BRZRK talk
Muv-Luv Author Kouki Yoshimune×BRZRK×Mafia Kajita 2016 4gamer Part 1 Interview Translation
Muv-Luv Author Kouki Yoshimune×BRZRK×Mafia Kajita 2017 4gamer Part 2 Interview Translation
Please note that since the speakers are delving into the main topics of the “Muv-Luv” series, there will be spoilers and topics from behind the scenes of the production. Take caution before reading.
Why did the fans have to wait 3 years?
Mafia Kajita:
Earlier, a lot of topics were raised about the growth of Takeru and the players themselves, but in terms of the significance of that growth, it does not mean that the players enter the UNLIMITED arc with the feelings of the EXTRA arc.
※EXTRA arc and UNLIMITED arc are included in the game “Muv-Luv”, and ALTERNATIVE can be played in the game “Muv-Luv Alternative” (hereafter referred to as, “ALT”).
Mr. Yoshimune:
Well, it means they enter it as a high school student in the Heisei era.
Mafia Kajita:
When you enter the UNLIMITED arc and then the ALTERNATIVE arc, the player feels surprised at times because they are already in the mindset of an inhabitant of the world of ALT. “Muv-Luv” is a work, and I dare say I have never experienced such a work that depicts the growth of the human heart along with the characters to such an extent.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Your words make me very happy. Thank you very much.
Mafia Kajita:
In the end, I too was a complete inhabitant/resident of the alternative world.
BRZRK:
I really wish Kajita-kun could have played it in real time. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:
You have to wait three years (laughs).
*ALT” the sequel to “Muv-Luv,” took three years to launch.
BRZRK:
I earnestly waited for three years, you know. When the release date was suddenly announced, I thought, “No, it won’t be released.”
Mr. Yoshimune:
The release announcement was made at the company booth at Winter Comic Con (……, I believe). It was a surprise without any advance notice. And when the time came, we showed a demo movie for the “ALT” launch promo. It included a movie of the shuttle launch and a lot of information that had been kept under wraps until then. The insert song “Carry on” was also shown there for the first time. When the video was over, there was an uproar in front of the booth, and some people were even shedding tears.
BRZRK:
The one where Sumika says “That’s why you’re so cool, Take-chan” before “Carry on”! I went to see it!
Mr. Yoshimune:
But everyone murmured, “It’s not going to release anyway, is it?” (laughs).
BRZRK:
Forgive me, I didn’t say it, but I thought so too (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
That’s why we reached for media outlets, and had the editors of various magazines play the entire game and publish play reports as proof of completion. Even so, people said, “We won’t believe it until we install the game and see the ending” (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
Well, it’s a pity that you can’t experience the feeling of that time, isn’t it, BRZRK? and waiting for 3 years on top of that …. Did you forget about “Muv-Luv” during that time?
BRZRK:
I never forgot about it because my friends and I always enjoyed discussing the mysterious parts of the EXTRA and UNLIMITED arcs of “Muv-Luv” and peeking at discussion sites on the Internet. Then, after a year had passed, it has not released yet. I said to myself, “I’m sure there will be some information soon, won’t it? I think it was the second year when I saw a movie of the Wadatsumi (amphibious TSF) taking off from a submarine carrier, and I thought, “Finally, it’s here!” But then, we thought that there will be another interval of waiting, won’t it? Aren’t the investors going to be angry? We used to make funny stories about it.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Well, they already gave up on me long ago!
BRZRK:
I knew it! (Laughs). Then, in the third year, the release of the game was suddenly announced at the Winter Comic Con, and while pre-ordering the a-brand box (a limited edition of 500 Volks packages that included an oversized figure for several tens of thousands of yen and the game) just to be sure, I said, “No, I still don’t believe it! I still don’t believe it!” But no matter how many days went by, there was no word of the postponement, I got scared.
Together: (laugh)
Mr. Yoshimune:
Tech Gian (Enterbrain’s adult game catalog magazine) published a series of articles on our work, and there was a double spread of a report on the delivery of the Master (Original) disk for “ALT” (Laughs.) In a magazine that is all about naked moe characters, there were many photos of an eroge company middle aged man and the cosplayer in charge of the article delivering the discs to the factory. I wondered how little trust they had in us, when such a thing would be treated as a scoop (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
But in the end, that means that neither the fans nor the industry had abandoned this work.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I am grateful. But, it seems that even though they believed in it, they didn’t think it would really come out (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
In a sense, it’s just like Evangelion. Isn’t it because there was a room for consideration, that you waited three years?
BRZRK:
Extra and Unlimited arcs won over my heart and mind. I wanted to see a continuation of this world. I thought it would be a continuation of the battle on this planet, but immediately after, I was drifted into a parallel world and this time it was a time leap. (laughs)
Mr. Yoshimune:
Raising the stakes at this point is a common policy in eroge. (Laughs), besides, there was no way I could continue from where Unlimited left off.
BRZRK:
Why is that?
Mr. Yoshimune:
It doesn’t matter whose ending it is after, the immigrant ship is accelerating at a near-light speed by gravitational gradient navigation to reach the Barnard system six light years away, so relatively too much earth time has passed. So none of the mothers looking up at the stars thought that Takeru was alive and fighting on the third planet of the solar system.
But he would be alive for a few years before the emigrant ships departed and the counter-offensive was launched, so they are showing the three-year-old child the light of the past sun, which took six years to reach them.
Mafia Kajita:
It’s hard. ……
BRZRK:
It’s really sad. …… Anyway, it was supposed to be a continuation of the UNLIMITED Arc, so the way the ALTERNATIVE Arc started (*) was so shocking that I threw the tangerine I was eating at that time onto the screen.
※The scene that is the avant-title (material before the opening credits in a film, anime, etc.) of the game, which is an introduction to the Lucifer operation (1999) before the beginning of the UNLIMITED arc (2001), and was presented in the style of a Hollywood movie.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Haha, why is that (laughs)?
Mafia Kajita:
Ahahahahaha! (laughs).
BRZRK:
Well, I just couldn’t figure out how I felt about it, so I threw it. The insides flew all over the place.
Mr. Yoshimune:
We added that “Avant” in a hurry about three weeks before the mastering of the game. Even though Takeru has grown up, the screen itself repeated the same development as in the UNLIMITED arc, so I wanted to make a big impact at the beginning, both in terms of direction/staging and player tension. Originally, I wanted to include an “Avant” from “Fossil Song”, which was supposed to be the debut work but became the second work due to difficulties in production.
At the time, elaborate opening movies were becoming the norm, but the one for “Fossil Song” was not an opening movie that was independent of the story, but rather a zapping introduction of information from the main story to create a meaningful atmosphere. So, I was evaluated with the perspective, “The fact that you put in such an over-the-top, elaborate performance is proof that you are quite confident in your work.”
”Fossil Song” is positioned far in the future of that world, and I felt that “Alternative,” which is an even more confident work, should naturally have a cinematic Avant-title.
BRZRK:
It’s “HUMAN BRAINS!” right?
Mr. Yoshimune:
Just before that, he spoils it by saying, “Oh, nō (brain)! (laughs).
Translator’s note: No (The English word for refusal) and Nō 脳 Japanese for Brain have similar sounds, so it’s a spoiler (Netabare) pun on that similarity.
Mafia Kajita:
That’s a pun, isn’t it? I’m amazed that you made such a reckless addition three weeks before mastering.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I went to the development department with the scenario for the Avant and explained it to them. The development staff, who had already been out of breath for about five times the normal amount, were listening to me with emotionless eyes. After listening to the explanation, I asked them, “How many tens of thousands of units will be sold if we include that avant scenario?
BRZRK:.
Well, it was only three weeks before the release. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:.
A few days later, Spindrill (the main programmer of AGE, who developed AGES on his own) was watching the finished avant-title prologue scene on a display screen and cheering, and he said, “I still don’t understand why you went to the trouble of adding this” (laughs). But while everyone was nitpicking, they created a large number of backgrounds that were used only there, and placed background objects in front of the TSF to add that kind of staging effect. I really admire the high level of craftsmanship of our developers.
Mafia Kajita:
It was indeed a very good introduction. It is hard to believe that was the quality of an almost 10 years old game.
BRZRK:
I was completely drawn into the story from that point on. The developers were really not holding back!
If Eva had been completed, would there have been no “Muv-Luv”?
Mafia Kajita:
Speaking of which, earlier when we talked about the roots of the theme and message, you mentioned that one of them was “Eirei no Kotonoha/Words of War dead Spirits”. You also mentioned that you were going to cram in a lot of other things and make a concerted “Total-war” effort. I was wondering why you did not mention Mr. Anno, whom I had heard about when I first went out for a drink with you.
BRZRK:
Hideaki Anno of Evangelion?
Mr. Yoshimune:
One of the things I was determined to do while working on “Muv-Luv” was to take revenge on Anno-san (laughs).
BRZRK:
Revenge! Why?
Mr. Yoshimune:
I have several spiritual teachers. Of course, I only call them masters on my own, but without their works, I would not be here today. They are, in any case, the greatest treasures of the industry. Among them, Yoshiyuki Tomino, whose works such as “Triton of the Sea,” “Zambot 3,” “Gundam,” and “Ideon” had a lot of influence on me as a teenager, not to mention “Aim for the Top! Gunbuster,” Evangelion (hereinafter, Eva), etc., influenced me in my 20s. These two men account for a large percentage of my anime brain.
BRZRK:
That would have been true of many creators.
Mr. Yoshimune:
The last big hit that I really got into was “Eva,” and I loved it so much. But you know about the last episode of the TV version, and the first two movie versions, well, let’s just call them “Eva” for the time being. Still, I wanted to see the end of “Eva” as Mr. Anno had originally envisioned. I think that the discussions about Eva that were raging on the Internet at the time of the broadcast, as well as the controversy, criticism, and critique of the work, had a great deal to do with the film. Of course, this was certainly the driving force behind the “Eva” blockbuster hit.
However, I think that Anno-san probably saw to the criticism even though he didn’t need to. He often complained and rebelled against it, and perhaps he got severely exhausted of the endless criticisms about the development and production of The End of Evangelion (Ea/Magokoro o, Kimi ni).
BRZRK:
Ah ……. I’m of the real-time generation, so I know the feeling well.
Translator Note: リアタイ/Reatie or Real-time, to watch TV programs and online distribution during the broadcast time.
Mr. Yoshimune:
If Mr. Anno had not looked at the Internet at all, “Eva” would be still here…… by now, which, speaking selfishly as a fan, is really frustrating (laughs). If “Eva” had been completed up to the end as it was in episode 19, “Muv-Luv” would not have been made as such, in fact.
Mafia Kajita:
Oh, you admit it. (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
To be frank, the content of “Muv-Luv” was a rebellion against the “Eva” that had changed, and you could say it also had an aspect of revenge.
BRZRK:
What exactly was your revenge for?
Mr. Yoshimune:
The development that had been anticipated in the 19th episode, “A Man’s Battle” was replaced by a live-action scene that brought me back to my senses, a projection of an otaku, and finally the choking of a woman who had been dumped and being called “disgusting”. I was always annoyed that the last big hit robot animation that influenced so many young people was like “No, you definitely shouldn’t do that.” A few years later, when it was decided that I would handle “Muv-Luv,” I said, “Well, I’ll take the liberty of avenging myself (laughs).
I know this is a bit presumptuous, or rather outrageous, but I decided to answer all the things that “Eva” avoided or threw away, including the depiction of Japan’s postwar system (Post WW2), and I decided that this is what I thought a Yell for boys should be like. In a sense, I was lucky, because it was perfectly in line with what I wanted to do when I saw “Eirei no Kotonoha/Words of War dead Spirits”.
BRZRK:
I see. So you mean that what you wanted Eva to do, you did yourself ……?
Mr. Yoshimune:
That’s right. That is exactly why the ups and downs of the main character and his trembling against adversary of the main character had to be more intense than in “Eva”. He says, “I shouldn’t run away,” but when he escapes, he has to be prepared for the hell that will be caused by his own fault, and when he grows impudent through misunderstandings without being aware of the consequences, he attracts a future with even harsher possibilities, and his self-esteem is shattered. In that sense, the ending of the UNLIMITED version is a complete trap (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
I fell right into that trap, and by the end of the UNLIMITED arc, I was completely in sync with Take-chan (the main character), and I felt like “I’ve grown up too.”
But when I finally tried “ALT”, I realized that “I haven’t grown at all!” It’s a stunning Ageotoshi.
Translator Note: (上げ落としRaise the mood or expectations then move in the direction of disappointment or depression. The degree of effect will be enormous.)
Mr. Yoshimune:
Life is like that, isn’t it? If you think you’ve done it all by yourself and get carried away, you will surely lose your footing.
BRZRK:
In UNLIMITED, you had a hard time completing the mission on the deserted island, but in “ALT,” you completed it with a comfortable margin. I thought, “I (Take-chan) can handle it this time,” and got carried away (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
It felt like that! “It’s a piece of cake/Easy Peasy!”.
Mr. Yoshimune:
It’s that “almightiness on the sand” that everyone falls into at least once. I’m glad you got into it so nicely (laughs).
BRZRK:
I felt a sense of superiority inside, like I knew it all.
Mafia Kajita:
For the character that was saying wrong stuff to me, I was like, how many times do you think I have played Unlimited? with a smug face. (Laughs)
BRZRK:
And then, when the story has progressed a little bit, my self-satisfaction started to break.
Mafia Kajita:
It was really playing with the player’s State of mind/Psychology, ……and it was brilliant to put this in the production.
Mr. Yoshimune:
No, Anno-san and his team are great because they were able to do that under certain limitations. The reason why an amateur like me was able to make something like that is because it was a PC adventure game. Unlike animation, the text capacity is, in a sense, unlimited. We could increase the amount of money or time as much as we wanted, as long as we were willing to take risks.
Mafia Kajita:
You mean you took a doujinteki 同人的 (Fan work) approach for your business?
Mr. Yoshimune:
That’s what I mean. It was also fortunate that I was able to see first hand how the internet was in turmoil after “Eva” ended without any answers to the foreshadowing and discussions. At the time, there was a lot of discussion and debate on 2channel, so while “Alt” was postponed, related threads were growing at an extraordinary rate.
If I wanted to take revenge on “Eva,” I had to be prepared to answer and respond to all of the online discussions and comments. So I was not shy about explaining the setting, background, etc., all in the scenario. Nowadays, light novels are much more relaxed in this area, but in those days, it was the worst of all possible tricks for a writer to explain all the settings and backgrounds in writing. The correct commercial solution was to reduce the number of sentences and improve the tempo.
Mafia Kajita:
You dared to break thorough that.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Yes. Revenge does not mean that we want to be enemies, so we thought that we could only achieve perfection if we could overwhelm the flames with our quality and the volume of our detailed explanations and turn them into positive feedback. In this way, I believe that “Alt” was able to be realized because it was a kind of Doujinteki production method that was not bound by commercial theories.
BRZRK:
Impressively, the novelty of the sales methods and devices stands out, but everything about “Muv-Luv” was unconventional, from the way it was made to its content and budget.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I think many players were overwhelmed by such foolery and enjoy the game, thinking, “These guys are real idiots (a compliment/homekotoba). “Eva” is not the only thing that motivated me to create “Muv-Luv,” but I am proud to say that in a sense, This is the kind of Eva I wanted to see.
After more than 10 years, the answer to that question was answered in “Shin Godzilla. The Japanese perspective/Stand point, the reality of Japan-U.S. relations, politics, organization, incommunicable enemies responding to human attacks, complete anti-aircraft lasers, saturation attacks, enemy remains near the capital, international relations over undiscovered elements. As I stared at the end roll, “I gave it a perfect score of 100!” and was moved to tears that I choked. (laugh).
Mafia Kajita:
You mentioned that at the talk event (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
Actually, a few years ago, I got the “Eva I wanted to see” pass rating. It was when I went to a Volks store in Akiba to look at figures. A group of junior high school students saw an A3 (Volks robot action figure) of Takemikazuchi and excitedly said, “What’s this Eva, it’s so cool!” (laugh).
Together (bursting with laughter)
Mr. Yoshimune:
Well, it’s purple (laughs).
BRZRK:
But there’s not even an “E” for Eva on the package!
Mr. Yoshimune:
It is an honor for me as a follower to be mistaken for “Eva”. (Laughs) I am what I am because of the works of such great predecessors. Compared to being told by my son, “You should watch more Shingeki no Kyojin and learn from it,” it’s like a trip to Hawaii (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
It’s the other way around! It’s the opposite! (laughs)
*The author of the same work has stated that the Shingeki no Kyojin is a respect/homage for “Alt”.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Well, I am more like a troublesome stalker for “Eva” than a fan. But even if it was selfish, I think that my “I’m going to carry on the great work of my predecessors!” belief, and the boldness and reckless drive that went with it were an absolute plus in the production process. And then we were blessed with the most important things, luck and people. If I had been a little more modest and hesitant to borrow money, the staff might not have gone along with me as far as they did.
BRZRK:
I think that was possible because of Mr. Yoshimune’s standpoint, though I think it was too optimistic (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
If you have two standpoints like the two of you, I think it would be very difficult. In fact, having more than one stand point is nothing but hardships. That’s why in the sequel, “Total Eclipse,” I made it a story about people who are tormented by their standpoints. Because I had depicted the gaining of a standpoint in “Muv-Luv,” I felt that I had to depict the negatives of that as well. However, due to my lack of ability, I seem to have made the audience misunderstand that “Standpoint = Blind love of Japan,” and the Abandoning the mother and child = A protagonist who hates Japan (Yuuya Bridges). The main character (Yuuya Bridges), A half-Japanese American military TSF surface pilot with prodigious piloting skills, who hates Japan, was hated immensely at the beginning of the serialization. Well, as the serialization progressed, the misunderstanding seemed to have been cleared up and everyone became more sympathetic.
Mafia Kajita:
It can’t be helped, but when I saw people saying they didn’t like Yuuya, I thought to myself, “Well, people who have never had to worry about their nationality wouldn’t understand this story.
BRZRK:
But because we are half-Japanese, we can understand and sympathize with them.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I am sure that the two of you did not like this fate, and yet you were often faced with unreasonable situations. But whether you have one, two, or zero standpoints, I think it is the same for both of you to be troubled by your standpoints. I think that Yuuya, who has two standpoints, one in Japan and the other in the U.S., Yui (Takamura Yui), a Japanese Imperial Guard in Total Eclipse who sticks to one standpoint, are the same in this case, and there are Cryska Barchenowa and Inia Sestina (Soviet Pilots in TE) who get introduced and have nothing, zero standpoints. They differ only in their types and tendencies, but they are flustered, not knowing who they are, where they are, or where they are going. In that sense, we are similar to each other and should be able to relate to each other at the root.
Mafia Kajita:
Surprisingly, there are many people in the world who cannot imagine how happy they are to have a definite identity as “Japanese. I was wondering why. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:
Identity, peace, human rights. Many people do not feel the value of things they were born with, or are not even aware of their existence because they take them for granted. For example, they don’t look up information on the Internet because they can look it up anytime they want, which is the same as saying that it is worthless and doesn’t exist.
It is no coincidence that many of today’s hit contents have created easy-to-understand entrances, such as girls, club activities, and schools, to “things that are vaguely familiar but not well understood,” leading people to online information, satisfying their desire for knowledge, and motivating them to become involved in the works by making them feel a sense of deepened communication.
Mafia Kajita:
That is why I found value in being an “Otaku” rather than a national or ethnic group. The moment I found that standpoint, I finally became a person with a solid identity.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I see that you have decided that the third standpoint is the real thing and have established yourself. This is a valuable experience that shows how important it is to have a fixed standpoint.
Mafia Kajita:
That’s one of the reasons I thought “standing point” Rikkyakuten立脚点 was a wonderful word. Is there anything that helped you to verbalize your standpoint?
Mr. Yoshimune:
A cause and motive, you mean?
Mafia Kajita:
As we have talked about before, the main theme of “Muv-Luv” is the standpoint for human beings.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I guess it is a story about myself. When I talk about that, I can’t help but return to my relationship with my father.
When I was a child, my father was also my teacher, and I was troubled because I did not know which side to take. In the end, my father’s strictness as a teacher was so ingrained in me that I never opened my heart to him, and he died without ever having opened his heart to me. This is the origin of my position and trauma. However, right around the same time I lost my father, I came across a book that disproved Japan’s postwar education.
From there, I went to Sanseidō and read every similar book I could find. Looking back, since my father was in the former Navy, my family often told me stories about the war, so perhaps it was a psychological need to affirm and redeem my father by disproving the prewar negativity that I had acquired through education.
BRZRK:.
So Mr. Yoshimune, you did not have a point of reference in the past, but struggling with your position in the family, you have arrived at your identity as a Japanese person.
Mr. Yoshimune:
That’s right. It is always the same that many young people do not have a standpoint. If you know who you are and where you come from, you will have a certain perspective. In my case, it was my father, his Navy, and Japan. So, I hope that “Muv-Luv” will be a good opportunity for you to find your own standpoint. That would make you at peace/comfort.
BRZRK:
Peace? 楽Raku
Mr. Yoshimune:
For example, one of my favorite sayings is “Life has no meaning”. 人生に意味はない jinsei ni imi wa nai.
It is because we seek meaning in our lives and assurance of a future that we do not know how it will turn out that we suffer. When you die, you have nothing to take with you to the afterlife. So let’s live each day as hard as we can while enjoying the present more comfortably. Once you have a firm standpoint, you will naturally develop this kind of mindset.
BRZRK:
I see.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Rather than trying to understand Adlerian psychology or other philosophies that are difficult to put into practice without causing trouble, it is much easier to establish a point of reference because it can be done by action and logic, and research is fun to begin with. That is why, as the next step, the new projects other than “Muv-Luv,” which I am currently working on, are designed to respect the generation that has no choice but to live moment by moment with a sense of stagnation/hopelessness and resignation, and to make the message of gaining a standpoint the main substance.
Mafia Kajita:
You say it easily, but the readers don’t know about the new projects (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
Oh, that’s right (laughs). I wanted to know how the response to new project, and I had Mr. Kajita and BRZRK listen to me over drinks, and kinda forgot. (laugh).
Going back to the subject, for example, I have recently noticed that there are many young people who work with their personalities as they are. When they fail or get angry, they feel as if their self-esteem is broken or their personality is denied, and this directly damages their psyche. That’s why they don’t last long.
Mafia Kajita:
That pattern may be common.
Mr. Yoshimune:
In our generation, we clearly separated our work personalities from our private personalities, and our superiors and seniors taught us to do so in the beginning. So even if we were depressed because of failure or angry at work, when we returned to our private life, we could switch from work to private life like Cygnus Hyoga, saying, “Nothing to worry about. ……,” and our hearts would not be hurt.
I think that if you have that kind of know-how plus a standpoint, both work and private life will become easier. I would like to connect the wisdom of our predecessors with the combo of “Muv-Luv” and the new project.
BRZRK:
What is the position of the word “standpoint” for you, Mr. Yoshimune?
Mr. Yoshimune:
I always wanted to replace the word “identity” with something that would ring a bell. There is a word “singularity,” isn’t there? I like that word because it is cool, but if the gravitational singularity is the ultimate in macroscopic outer space, then I think the standing point is the opposite, the ultimate in inner space. It is the place where we define ourselves, or the origin of the self.
Mafia Kajita:
I see, that fits. I also had a vague idea that something like that was important, but I couldn’t find the words to express it. It was only with “Muv-Luv” that I realized that it could be expressed with the word “standpoint. The existence of this word “standpoint” really weighs down the story. The bittersweet but moving happy ending at the end of the game really made this doubly sure, and even after the game was over, it still had an impact on my life (laughs).
The true identity of “Muv-Luv” hidden behind a large number of symbols.
Mr. Yoshimune
Alt’s end was happy, wasn’t it?
BRZRK:
Well, it’s a big circle, isn’t it?
Mr. Yoshimune:
Of course, as long as the game has been sent out as a product, the correct answer is what the player receives through his or her own subjective filter, so it would be redundant to say what the creator “intends” to say about it. ……
Mafia Kajita:
No, no, I’m very interested in …….
Mr. Yoshimune:
”Muv-Luv” is the story of the main heroine Kagami Sumika, and what she did in the end was the creation of the so-called Final Extra world. Sumika, who was the cause of the disappearance of the parallel world in which Takeru and the other heroines were happy, re-created a world in which all the heroines had a fair chance to become lovers with Takeru, as atonement for her actions. She also erased all of Takeru’s memories related to the ALTERNATIVE world.
When Takeru returned to the EXTRA world in the middle of the work to retrieve the quantum theory of causality, what kind of state of mind did he have toward others? Considering what happened to Vietnam and Iraq veterans in the general society, we can see that it was Sumika’s kindness. Furthermore, Yuuhi, who was supposed to be dead, was brought back to life, and Kasumi, who did not even exist in the EXTRA world, was reconstituted with the surplus material that had made up Takeru in the ALTERNATIVE world. In form, it is a grand conclusion of a pattern seen in many works, and at first glance, it sounds like a very heartwarming story.
Mafia Kajita:
Ye…… Yeah.
Mr. Yoshimune:
But is that really happy? Are you really happy if you lose all the harsh experiences and bad memories that helped you grow up? I wonder if it is really happy to lose not only those harsh experiences and bad memories, but also all the happy and moving experiences, and go back to being a happy-go-lucky high school student. For me, there is a bit of irony in this. We have to think carefully about what is behind the common pattern of happy endings.
Mafia Kajita:
Wow. Mr. Yoshimune really has a nasty character. (Laughs)
Mr. Yoshimune:
That’s the highest praise I can get (laughs). I want to go one step further if I am going to do this. On the other hand, I am not sure if players would be pleased if they were to notice my intention. After all, it could be taken as a denial of happiness. That’s why we didn’t want to do FINAL EXTRA at first. However, the plot of the game was to have a happy ending according to the marketing data, so we managed to come to a compromise and made the game the way it was.
By the way, the suicide note after Operation Ouka was not in the original plot. It was an idea that came to me a few weeks before the mastering, and since “ALT” is a story featuring the relationship between Sumika and Meiya, I thought there should be a reward for the fans of the subheroines, and it is a pursuit of responsibility, “You must live with the feelings of the woman you did not choose”.
Mafia Kajita:
Heavy!
Mr. Yoshimune:
The same was true of “Kimi ga Ita Kisetsu” and “Kimi ga Nozomu Eien.” At that time, we were saying, “The moment you get together with the woman of your dreams, there is no way that the woman you have been making passes on can conveniently and completely sort the feelings in her mind/heart or disappear!” That was our style. So it is only natural that the “Muv-Luv” series, which is a pair of projects with “Kimi ga Nozomu Eien” (The Eternity You Desire), should be like that. In order to cultivate compassion and imagination, you have to watch until the very end as the girls who created a harem but did not choose to be in it become weak because of it. It is all one set. It’s a good thing I put that experience in the game! (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
Kouki Yoshimune, a real devil (laughs).
BRZRK:
How did you come up with such a wicked idea?
Mr. Yoshimune:
In fact, I felt that the ending of Sumika and Meiya was too impressive and unbalanced. I wondered how I could make the players, who were deeply depressed by the end of those two, understand how sorry I was for the subheroines.
Then I thought, “Ah, a suicide note. I immediately called Tamu, who was in the middle of working on the production, and asked him, “If you put the suicide note in here, I think it will weigh heavily on the player’s mind. He must have been frustrated because he was in the final stages of development, yet he replied immediately and happily, “Let’s put it in!” (laugh).
Together: (Laughs)
Mr. Yoshimune:
But contrary to our expectations, we received many comments saying that they were glad to see a side of the subheroines that they had not seen before, so I guess we are happy with the result. (Laughs.) The subheroine episodes that are not depicted in the main game, as well as the separately sold “extra episodes,” have been integrated into the Manga serialized in Dengeki Daioh and supplemented in various ways, so please be sure to read the comic.
BRZRK:
I buy the Manga, too, and they have been serialized for a long time.
Mr. Yoshimune:
2017 is the 25th anniversary of Dengeki Daioh, and thankfully, the “Muv-Luv” series has been continuously published for 15 of those years. Azusa-sensei (Azusa Makishima)’s debut work is “Muv-Luv Alternative,” and it has surpassed “Gunslinger Girl” in the number of Dengeki Daioh books published.
Mafia Kajita:
Well, if you do “Muv-Luv” properly, it will take a long time.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Recently, Operation Ouka has finally come to an end, but I wonder how the suicide note would be handled in a manga (laughs).
BRZRK:
That’s seriously rubbing salt in the wounds.
Mr. Yoshimune:
I personally liked the will of the character Ayamine (彩峰 慧, a subheroine in the work, because hers was the most personally destructive. I think it was very cute. Don’t you want one too!?
Mafia Kajita:
No, no, I don’t want to get a will! (laughter)
Mr. Yoshimune:
That is based on the lyrics of a duet by Yumi Matsutoya and Masumi Okada called “Don’t Come with Your Lover 恋人と来ないで”. As expected of Yumi. It was very sad and memorable.
BRZRK:
I’ll listen to it next time (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
Going back to the production, as Mr. Yoshimune said, “Muv-Luv” is a story that is very typical, but it is not a simple story. The character outlines and personalities are completely typical of gal games. But there’s a true depth and heavy background behind it. I think it would be difficult even if I used the theatrical theory that I have just heard to keep the characters consistent in EXTRA, UNLIMITED , and ALTERNATIVE, which are completely different from each other. However, in the actual work, the characters are established beautifully without any breakdown. What was the secret behind this?
Mr. Yoshimune:
I think it is possible without doing anything special if we continue to carefully verify the templates for the work and check them over and over again. In fact, the “ALT” scenario was completely rewritten nearly 10 times, so I think such checks came naturally. It’s about unifying to the standard of one person who can decide the flow of the story.
BRZRK:
In terms of the consistency, Meiya is a rare character who is hardly affected by the changes in circumstances throughout the three stories.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Meiya is an important main heroine, and as a fixed point character with fluctuating values, she plays an unshakable role/stable axis in all worlds in terms of relationship values and the story. In times of war, Meiya’s resolve and words and actions are extremely dependable, but in a peaceful world, she comes across as a screwed-up weirdo.
For example, in the Extra episode, she buys up several kilometers of land and clears it, leaving only Sumika’s house and his own house alongside Takeru’s house. This is not just the behavior of a rich woman with a lot of money, but it is also an avatar of Yokohama Hive and for Sumika, a metaphor of BETA itself. Sumika’s peaceful daily life was destroyed by the appearance of Meiya.
Mafia Kajita:
If you ask me, it is true that her absurdity/unreasonableness is that of BETA.
Mr. Yoshimune:
So Takeru can loop the story starting from October 22 when Meiya appeared. Sumika’s unconscious jealousy and negative feelings are linked to the ALTERNATIVE world of Sumika. In addition, the reason why only the park of memories remained is because Sumika and Takeru were caught in that park (laughs).
BRZRK:
Eeeeeeeee!!!? I didn’t know that. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:
That is why the ALTERNATIVE version features not only Sumika but also Meiya to such an extent. In the scene that I mentioned as a counterpart to the hot springs, when Takeru is stuck in a dialogue with the A target, Meiya, who was the symbol of BETA for Sumika in EXTRA, breaks through with all her might by slashing at the A target, the leader of BETA, and joins forces with Sumika to save Takeshi.
This scene is a sublimation of the scene in the hot spring where Sumika and Meiya confess to each other, “I love Take-chan,” and laugh at each other, and it was a necessary development to purify Sumika’s negative feelings and to make her potentially reconcile with Meiya.
BRZRK:
S ….seriously?
Mafia Kajita:
Indeed, everything is paired. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:
Huh? I’m sorry, I may have misunderstood your question. You asked how we did the overall design (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
What you just said was interesting enough (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
Thank you (laughs). Well, “ALT” is built on the theory of playwriting in reverse.
First, I decided on the story, then the roles of the characters in accordance with the theme. Then, the symbols of the characters are decided last, working backwards from the roles. This is the opposite of the so-called character-oriented moe style of production. If the whole is completed, I can check the relationship values and symbols in theory, so I misunderstood the question and answered it that way. My intention was to challenge the conventional wisdom of existing eroge and gal games, so the method of creation is the exact opposite of gal games and moe games, which are created from the characters.
Mafia Kajita:
I see.
Mr. Yoshimune:
In the publicity, we were trying to make people think that it was a “galge” game only, but we didn’t want to lie, so we added the sales pitch “super” romance adventure, meaning something beyond that, rather than “royal road” romance adventure, as an excuse. I was not sure if I wanted to lie about it or not.
BRZRK:
It is indeed a challenge to galge and eroge. At a previous drinking party, I heard that you made the EXTRA version with a tension so low that it would kill you (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
To begin with, I never played eroge or even gal games. (Laughs.) I am not good at moe either, so when I played so-called typical gal games, I never found them interesting at all. In fact, when I was making the first chapter of “Kimi Nozo,” there were parts where I was thinking, “Geez, there’s no way this guy is real.……”
Mafia Kajita:
Hey, stop it! The producer shouldn’t talk like that (laughs).
BRZRK:
Like a character with a distinctive way of speaking or something that makes you want to punch him when you see him?
Mr. Yoshimune: .
At the start of one game, I was suddenly told, “There is eternity,” and then I turned off the power saying, “NO……” (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
Ohf (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
That’s probably why I’m hopeless. I don’t believe in miracles with all my heart, so I can’t create the kind of development that many players want (laughs). Gal games are sold on symbolism, in other words, on characters, so it’s perfectly correct to say that what I can’t relate to is better. Spindrill used to say to me, if something makes Yoshimune-san go “Eeeeeeh～～～っ!!!”, then its super moe.
Mafia Kajita:
Reverse moe sensor (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
I don’t believe in miracles, so I can’t help but think, “It’s not going to work out that conveniently!” Therefore, I want to depict the reality of the downfall of the heroine who was not chosen, When I look at the styles of famous authors, I find that most of them are minor or major characters.
On the other hand, the works of those who can truly believe in a miracle and draw it will be deeply moving and healing, and they are popular among the general public and become major works.
We didn’t know how to find the right balance, so we just added a lot of the elements that are common in gal games (laughs). That’s why the EXTRA version of “Muv-Luv” covers all the situations that were promised in the school erotic games of the time.
Mafia Kajita:
Aiming for something nasty again, aren’t we?. The main heroine has red hair, lives next door to me, and our rooms are arranged so that they face each other on the second floor, and she comes to wake me up in the morning ……. (laughs)
Mr. Yoshimune:
But we didn’t do it as a joke. Our goal was to attract as many gal game lovers as possible.
The same goes for the characters. In the saturated gal game market, we wanted to create a design that would stand out in magazines and stores. As with the mecha, the concept was to create a silhouette that would be recognizable even when painted over.
However, since we were planning for long-term development, we did not want to go with the then-popular designs, like NG (Nu Gundam) as that time, so we consulted with the president of a manufacturer we knew, and he introduced us to Mr. Bou, who was in charge of original drawings for that brand. He is a genius who can blend straight lines and curves well and draw both mechas and cute girls. In the rough sketch of the character, the hairstyle of Tamase Miki (the heroine, nicknamed “Tama”) was drawn. When he suggested a hairstyle for Tama, I thought to myself, “This guy is definitely a god” (laughs).
BRZRK:
I’m playing the Steam version, but when Tamase appears, I think, “It looks awesome!”.
Mafia Kajita:
Ha-ha-ha, I know! But, you did that on purpose, too, didn’t you?
Mr. Yoshimune:
Of course (laughs). EXTRA in particular is, as the name suggests, a “bonus/Omake”. I think it is important to remember that the world is a place of peace and human rights, both in the sense that it is impossible to make a decent gal game, and in the sense of how valuable peace and human rights are and how they are not to be taken for granted. At the beginning of UNLIMITED, when Takeru says, “My world was peaceful,” Yuuko points out, “Wasn’t it only Japan that was peaceful?
The peaceful Japan of today is just a “leftover” of the “bonus” that our predecessors risked their lives to acquire by taking advantage of geopolitical factors and the Cold War structure after the Great War. Therefore, if we don’t try to protect it by ourselves, it will disappear, and if we leave it to others, we may not even be able to watch anime anymore.
Mafia Kajita:
In a situation like UNLIMITED or ALT, we cannot say it is entertainment. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:
That is right. Otaku culture is said to be the legitimate successor to Edo culture, but it takes time and leeway for this civic culture to reach full maturity, so it can only be born from a situation where it is separated from national defense for a long period of time.
If the title is to appeal to the cultivation of the mindset to protect it, and if it is to claim to be the royal road (Shortcut or true road) for eroge, which is located in the deepest layer of otaku culture, and for galge, which is a more flowery of eroge, then the ultimate character symbol with the highest level of popularity would be the royal road (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
So the ultimate in this is Tama (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
The extremely symbolic characters should have functioned as camouflage to keep players from realizing the “ALT”-like sci-fi and robot elements of the game. Until the release date of “Muv-Luv,” we only provided information that mislead people into thinking it was a school gal game. We added the “super” to the genre description that I mentioned earlier, we placed a subtle “Takemikazuchi” in the background of the key visuals, and we secretly mixed in pictures of TSFs with the aircrafts that appeared in the magazine Valgren-on (a game similar to Sega’s Virtual-On), etc. We mixed in various foreshadowing and hints that could be noticed if you looked closely.
BRZRK:
It’s really amazing that you went through such a time-consuming preparation.
Mafia Kajita:
By the way, I feel that “Muv-Luv” after UNLIMITED is similar to a war memorial, but war stories/commentaries are created by placing the characters in a situation, which inevitably dilutes the characters. However, in “Muv-Luv,” the characters are incredibly present, and I think that is rare.
Mr. Yoshimune:
To explain in theatrical/playwriting terms, a war story is basically an ensemble drama, with characters scattered in various stages, and the camera switches from point to point. The symbolism of the characters is only a gateway to interest, and what the user focuses on is the value of the relationships between the characters, but in the case of a war story, the value of the relationships between the main characters can only be seen in battle.
In the case of “Muv-Luv,” the main characters are the ones we know and love, and they are connected to each other through chronological events, so the continuity of the relationship values is maintained. In addition, whether it is a character or an incident, the invisible pieces fit together, and when all the pieces have been assembled, the picture is revealed to be the same as the one that was supposed to have been seen at the beginning of the story. At first glance, the book appears to be a war story, but at the same time it has a mystery-like structure.
Mafia Kajita:
Ah, so that’s how it is. ……
Mr. Yoshimune:
Such preparations are thoroughly implemented in all the parts that make up the game. For example, the theme song “Muv-Luv” is played as the first verse in EXTRA, the second verse in UNLIMITED , and the full chorus in the end credits of ALTERNATIVE , but if you listen to them after playing the games, they sound completely different even though they are the same song. After playing each of them, you will hear the same song with a completely different meaning.
Mafia Kajita:
Well, that song is really great!
Mr. Yoshimune:
The lyricist, Ikuko Ebata, is a genius.
Mafia Kajita:
To be honest, when I first heard about it, I thought it might be a bit different than your normal galge.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Well, for a galge, the songs don’t seem to be too happy-go-lucky(hatchaketenai). The singing voice doesn’t sound like the characters either (laughs).
BRZRK:
It was just as Yoshimune-san said. The songs that I had been listening to casually took on a different meaning as the story progressed, and when I heard them at the end of “ALT,” the scenery that came to mind was completely different from the first time I heard them. It was a truly incredible experience. I wonder how on earth he wrote the lyrics.
Mr. Yoshimune:
It is the same as a presentation at a magazine. First, the entire story is told at the first music meeting, and then the story is blurred out and refined until it becomes a word. Through repetition of this process, we came up with the lyrics. The lyrics were suitable for “Love and Courage’s Fairy Tale,” which can be interpreted differently depending on the player’s experience.
BRZRK:
The focus of the listeners is gradually adjusted according to the amount of knowledge they have.
Mr. Yoshimune:
The simple, plain language allows for a high degree of freedom of interpretation. It can sound like a sad maiden’s heart, or like what Sumika was thinking in her cylinder. If you consider that, it cannot be a coincidence. Furthermore, in the end roll version of “ALT,” I had the arrangement of the interlude changed to one that gives a sense of hope. I was quite moved by that.
Mafia Kajita:
It is the exact opposite of Evangelion’s “The Cruel Angel’s Thesis,” isn’t it? That song was written without any knowledge of the content, and yet it is a masterpiece that matches the content. After all, after “Muv-Luv” was finished, it became the most played song on my iTunes.
BRZRK:
Me and My friend who is a Virtua Fighter player and is crazy about “Muv-Luv” kept saying: “The Muv-Luv song is awesome! (laughs).
Mr. Yoshimune:
It must be that person who wrote the review article of “Muv-Luv” in a certain magazine (laughs). Whether it’s that person or the two of you, you look like street-style martial artists, and you don’t look like the kind of people who play gal games while bawling your eyes out.
Mafia Kajita:
No, no, Yanki (Youth Delinquents) are surprisingly pure-hearted and touching!
BRZRK:
Me and my friends still get together, go knocking on people’s houses and say, “Let’s go see Operation Cherry Blossom!”
Mr. Yoshimune:
”Let’s go see Operation Cherry Blossom!” sounds really interesting! (laughs).
Together (laugh)
Mr. Yoshimune:
If I had known you earlier, I wish you could have seen the live performance at Kosei-Nenkin Kaikan. The big screen was even bigger than the movie screen, and Mr. Endo’s live singing from the Radhabinod speech was amazing!
BRZRK:
Oh, but I was invited to the Zepp show through a certain media outlet! When I was listening to the artist sing, I had to hold back my tears and look up at an angle because I didn’t want my friend beside me to see me.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Songs and music are amazing, they can tell a story in 4 minutes and move us, they can be a catalyst for memory. When I listen to old songs, I remember many things, from how I felt at the time to the smell of the air. In a sense, anime songs are loved so much because they are military songs in a sense. The theme song reminds us of the common experience of the battlefield that is the work of art. Even those who don’t know each other can get together and get excited about it. It is truly a military song for Otakus (laughs).
Mafia Kajita:
I get it. Because It’s a song with a story.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Works that remain in the memory have theme songs and background music that make you replay back the entire story just by listening to them. We did everything we could think of to make “Muv-Luv” that kind of thing. The music producer was also very serious about the project, and we both made no compromises in the songs and lyrics, and repeated retakes until we were satisfied with the image we had. For example, the name of the music is unusual. Usually, lyricists and composers decide the titles of theme songs and background music, but we asked a lot of people to help us decide the titles. The order of the songs on the soundtrack is the same, with a structure that allows the audience to follow the story as they listen to the songs.
BRZRK:
We’ve been thoroughly working even on the songs and compositions. …… It’s true that the songs from “Muv-Luv” are still talked about.
Mr. Yoshimune:
Many of the artists who have now become well-known for their BGM, as well as the theme song, have participated in this project. They all put their passion into their work. The vocal songs are still very popular, especially Roar of the Future, which is very popular even outside of Japan, and is still being requested for karaoke, for which I am very grateful.
4Gamer:
It was a very passionate talk, and I feel like I haven’t heard enough yet, but I think it’s time to wrap it up now. It’s almost four hours now (laughs).
BRZRK:
Ugh, I’d love to hear more about it ……, but I can’t summarize it any further: ……. It would be a shame to lose information when the “ALT” manga series in Dengeki Daioh comes to an end, and it would be nice to have a monthly series in 4Gamer. It is important to keep it going.
Mafia Kajita:
The serialization project itself sounds interesting. And we can ask Yoshimune-san for some life advice.
Mr. Yoshimune:
This is going to be an annoying corner with a little bit of unrelated information mixed in (laughs).
4Gamer:
We will continue to consider it (laughter).
Mafia Kajita:
It’s settled then (?). By the way, could you give a message to the fans and newcomers to Muv-Luv?
Mr. Yoshimune:
Yes, I will do my best to have a series of articles in 4Gamer in 2017!
All: No, no, no (laughs)!
Mr. Yoshimune:
Now, let me be serious (laughs). First of all, the “Muv-Luv” series is enjoyed by both old and new fans, and we intend to continue it for the next 20 or 30 years. We would like to develop the series into content that will accompany you throughout your life, and we would be happy if you would work with us to create the “Muv-Luv” that you want to play. For the time being, we are working hard on the next anime!
We are also working on various other projects. We will do our best to show you our work as soon as possible through existing media, the Internet, doujinshi, etc. We hope you will support us and look forward to seeing some of our work at the Summer Comic in 2017!
Mafia Kajita:
Oh, I am looking forward to it. Thank you very much for your time today.
BRZRK:
Thank you very much. We’d love to do a series, and we’d love for fans to respond!
Muv-Luv Recommended Articles and References
- Schwarzesmarken Bernhard im Schatten 1 Fan Translation Release
- Schwarzesmarken Bernhard im Schatten 2 Fan Translation Release
- Schwarzesmarken Two Homes, One Road Fan Translation Release – Katia Waldheim Prequel Story
- “Muv-Luv” One Year Later
- “Muv-Luv” The Home of Anguish and The Pure Land
- “Muv-Luv” The Pursuit of Knowledge
- “Muv-Luv” Asimov’s Psychohistory
- Schwarzesmarken Kouketsu no Monshou – Crest of Red Blood Walkthrough Guide + Lore Glossary & Trivia
- The Day After: 2011 Interview with Wei Luxin Translation
- Adoration 2011 Interview with Kouki Yoshimune Translation
- TDA-00 “Epilogue” : Daryl A. McManus Short Story Translation
- Last Divers Prequel Story – A World of Endless Stars Translation
- Integrate 24th Newsletter Interview – Imageboard Analysis from Kouki Yoshimune Translation
- Muv-Luv Alternative – The Political Map and History of Imperial Japan
- Schwarzesmarken Epilogue Novel: May You Be Happy Fan Translation Release
- Schwarzesmarken Requiem Vol. 1 Prayer Fan Translation Release
- Schwarzesmarken Bernhard im Schatten Chapters 8-11 (Fin) Fan Translation Release